A revisitation of my first post, "I know some of the nicest guys, who I would love to be friends with and hang out with, but after a while they always start getting a bit flirty."

For several months, friends have been saying to me, "Hey, I read your advice blog, but I've got a problem with that thing you said about how a girl should fend a guy off by saying that he'll get clingy. That would never work!"

The post that they refer to is my first, which is on the subject of how a woman might turn guy friends who always flirt with her into *actual* friends. And the section that they refer to is this one:

1) Open up and/or lie about how crazy you are and what a bad idea it would be for the two of you to make out.

When a girl says, "I'm sorry, I can't make out with you, I'm just not into you like that," it hurts. But when a girl says, "I'm sorry, I'm a nutjob and you shouldn't make out with me," it hurts much less, because it doesn't insult the guy, it also lowers your sexy aura of mystery a bit, and it makes the guy feel respected.

If you're super brave (or if this is the truth), tell him that you wish you could have just a one-night stand with him, but you know you'll get clingy, so you don't want to risk that.

Basically if you make yourself appear less mysterious and more crazy, it will remind the boy of all the things he doesn't like about getting close to girls. Then he'll appreciate how nice it is to be just friends with you.

My critical friends are right. I really didn't explain this well enough and I used a bad example. But I still do stand by the idea that, if you make yourself appear less mysterious and more crazy, an interested party will truly begin to appreciate you as just a friend.

I'm going to rephrase some of the things I said in that old post and, as I did in that old post, I will invoke the ghost of Say Anything.

Now, let's go through a brief Q&A session on why Lloyd and Corey will not date:


Why does Lloyd not date Corey (aside from the fact that it would make the movie much shorter)?


They are friends.


So? Lots of friends end up dating.


Yeah, but Corey is really crazy. Lloyd would not go for that.


True, Corey is crazy. But so is Diane. She's a repressed, manipulative daddy's girl who is really hard to talk to.


Good point... So, why would Lloyd never date Corey, then?


Because he's already familiar with Corey's craziness. He doesn't truly see Diane's craziness until he's already become attached to her, and, by that point, it only makes him care about her more.


Think of all the things that you hesitate to say to a guy you like when you first meet him. Think about your minor skeletons. Maybe it's that you're on lithium. Maybe it's that you've cheated on former boyfriends. Maybe it's that you once belonged to a cult.  None of those things would truly make a girl any less likely to be a good girlfriend or a great person. But, if an attractive, cool girl who I'd just met were to tell me any of those things, I'd be slightly less likely to want to be involved with her and I'd be slightly more likely to want her around as the type of person I can talk to about un-romantic subjects (like prescription drugs, cheating, or belonging to a cult). In other words, I'd be more likely to want her as a friend.


So that's my revision of my original advice. In my original post, I made it sound like I was advocating merely for saying "If we have sex, I'll get clingy," but that was merely a poor example of a bigger idea, which is that if you tell a guy friend the kinds of things that you would *not* tell a guy you were interested in, he will be less likely to see you as more than a friend. 


We've all got a good number of things that we wouldn't talk about with somebody we did not yet feel comfortable around. And what is comfort, after all? Comfort is knowing where you stand. Comfort is knowing whether your relationship is romantic or platonic. That's why we often don't open up (about some things) to people we want to have sex with until after we've had sex. The earlier you allow yourself to open up, the earlier you clarify the nature of the relationship. If you really open yourself up early on, it will not make you unattractive, but it will do a lot to clarify that you are friends.



Even if you don't feel like your own "baggage" will necessarily be a deterrent, you can still make it work. For instance, don't say, "I don't know if I'm cut out for relationships, (sigh) I guess I'm just going to turn into a cat lady." That will make him want to comfort you. Say something like, "Oh man, last time I dated a guy, there ended up being so much drama, I don't even know how it happened."

Don't play the cute bird with damaged wings. Play the role of his crazy friend. Play the Corey to his Lloyd. 


This might sound disingenuous, but I really don't think it is. We all play roles whether we mean to or not. Our roles change depending on what we want out of people, but sometimes we fall into such strong habits of interaction that we forget what we really want. Sometimes we get so used to relating to the opposite sex in one way that we forget that it's not in our best interest to relate that way to every member of the opposite sex. 

When I was 15 or so, I went through a phase where I habitually tried (and failed) to be nice and accommodating to nearly every girl I met. This was my habitual, natural role. But I didn't actually want all of those girls to like me. I wasn't actually attracted to most of them nor was I interested in being friends with most of them. What I'm suggesting is this: Recognize the roles you play in your interactions with the opposite sex and take more control over them. You will be more likely to get what you want.

A minor thought that involves tags and baggage claims used as metaphors

I once heard the expression that women should come with a tag that says, "Handle with care." If that's the case, then men should come with a tag that says, "I am a boytoy, boyfriend, surrogate-dad, and a shrink, but I am not a baggage claim attendant."

"Is 26 the new 22 for guys?"

Benny,


After you have read my blog, you no doubt have several thoughts on the neurosis that plague me. :) But since you did recommend that I write to you, I figured- "what the hell?" I am going to copy and paste part of an unpublished blog I wrote...it didn't feel quite right for my blog, but perhaps it will work for yours.


Is 26 the new 22 for guys?
I remember when I was 21 and 22 and I thought- just five more years and the boys with have grown up...now I am older, supposedly wiser, and still disappointed. Like all of my 5 year plans, it never actually counts down...its it still 5 years away. I am now convinced that a man must be older than 30 to be mature enough to date, enter into a relationship willingly, and stay in that relationship in a healthy way.


Mr. Ball-less (the very recent ex) has commitment issues and isn't ready for a GIRLFRIEND. I wasn't asking him to Wife Me....just introduce me as his girlfriend and maybe let me meet his friends. I wasn't asking for the world here- just a common courtesy. We decided months ago to be exclusive...and he told me he loved me...and I believed him...but he just couldn't have a "label." 26 years old and afraid of the big "GF."




I believed a lot of things he said... again, when he said he LOVES me and that he would never let me leave him because he would stand in my front yard with a boombox above his head everyday until I took him back. I believed him when he told my brother, "Dude, you never have to worry about killing me for hurting your sister because if I ever hurt this girl- I will kill myself." I believed that he told his coworkers that he has never had more fun with anyone in his entire life than me. I believed him when he told me that I am the coolest girl he has ever met in his life AND that everytime he thinks of me he "gets a half chub" (that was a bit drunken, and crass...which is why we were so perfect) I believed him when he said that there is no one in the world he would rather be with than me and that being "with" me is the best thing he has ever experienced in his life...


Now, I keep hearing all these stories about guys who realize their mistake and come back...and as optimistic as that sounds- I don't believe them? He will still be a schizophrenic 26 year old with commitment issues. I believe he will miss me- fucking DUH! I was the most fun person he has ever been with and the coolest girl he has ever dated (just quoting him here...not tooting my own horn...much). But will he realize that he fucked up and try to make it better?


So what do YOU think? What are the odds of the Return of the Prodigal Son?


Sincerely,
Mademoiselle Haute Mess
from carriebradshawisfullofit.blogspot.com (yep- you plugged yours, so i'll plug mine! *wink*)


Dear Mademoiselle Haute Mess,


Your description of your situation is very evocative and I can tell that it began as a blog post, and I thank you for sharing it.

In full disclosure, when I began writing this response, I had just gotten out of a relationship less than 48 hours before. The way it ended resembled the end you described, but with myself in your position. I will do my best to use my experience for your benefit and not forget that the point of this post is to help you, not to just air my own story.

The problem of 22-year-old 26-year-olds is not as uncommon as you might think. Because of how often our pop culture feeds us the idea that men are "immature" and "commitment-phobic" by nature, it is tempting to chalk this situation up to the inane platitude of "That's just how men are."

Nearly any generalization about the sexes covers up an innate fear that most of us seem to have these days: the fear of the vast unknown that lies inside every individual.

My ex-girlfriend told me that she could not get over the fact that she missed out on her teens and early twenties due to consistently having boyfriends from the age of 15 and being in one long relationship from 19 to 24. She wanted freedom. I'd experienced that freedom before in a way that she had not. If it were as unfamiliar to me, I would probably crave it as well. I still don't know if we have an innate craving for that freedom or if we just want it because our culture constantly markets singlehood to us, but we all do desire it at some point.

The topic of freedom is a very interesting one. The question of "What does freedom mean to this person?" tends to lead to some of the best answers you can find in life. It applies to love, sex, politics, business... like I said, life.

I went on a bit of a tangent there. My point was this: many people would take a look at my ex and say, "She has issues." But many people would take a look at your ex and say, "He's just a guy." But he has issues. He clearly does.

Some people say "commitment issues," or "intimacy issues," but I like to call them Freedom Issues.

I feel like the best I can do here is help you see how this guy did what he did because he's a complicated mess- not just because he has a penis.

I can think of three primary things that give a man Freedom Issues.

1) He's burnt out on being associated with another person. He dislikes introducing someone as his girlfriend because it makes him think of his own history of being introduced as someone's son, someone's brother, some bigger kid's sidekick... and so on. In life, it's been hard for him to feel that he's standing on his own. He's comfortable being attached to another human being because it is familiar. But it hurts him, too. To him, freedom means not being associated with another human being.

I really don't know how common this is, but I know a few people who have this issue and I suspect that it is not uncommon.

2) He was popular with women very early in life. Maybe he was one of the first boys in his class to grow muscles and lose his baby fat back in middle school, and he only got more popular when he joined the football team in high school. He experienced that thrill of popularity that seems to be strongest during youth. No matter how successful he is now, life still hasn't lived up to the excitement he felt during his early peak.

Think of how much popularity meant between the ages of 12 and 17 (roughly). When you're not the person everybody wants to fuck, you think to yourself, "Isn't there more to life than being the person everybody wants to fuck?" But when you are the person everybody wants to fuck, there is little reason for you to look at the situation critically. Some do realize that there is more to life than the currency of popularity despite being popular themselves, but some become so used to it that they value themselves with that same currency long after it ceases to matter in the eyes of most people.

This manchild is perhaps the most commonly-known type of manchild out there. Sometimes I think that it is because our culture considers these men "normal" that we are left with the cliched idea that men "don't grow up" and "can't commit" and "can't keep their dicks in their pants."

Imagine a woman spending her twenties and thirties trying to relive the days when she was 16 and everybody wanted to fuck her. Many people would call her a slut who was out-of-touch with reality. Many people would notice that she was desperately clinging to something of questionable value. Apply that same reasoning to a man and... voila! Now you have reality.

3) He was unsuccessful with women into his teens and perhaps even well into his twenties. He is one of the Tiger Woodses of the world. He is the opposite of #2. While the #2's were banging the girl #3 had a misguided crush on, #2 resigned to the fact that he'd never be an alpha male. Chances are, he finally did manage to get a girlfriend - probably one who began as a close friend he had a long-term crush on- some time in his teens and it was a big deal to him. It was an even bigger deal to him when they split up, because he realized he was ill-equipped to meet more women. Perhaps he continued like this even into his early twenties.

Then, one day, he made a discovery that men often make: it's not actually that hard to attract women! Sometimes, if you don't say anything incredibly pathetic or stupid, they might actually - surprise! - make a move on you! This guy is conflicted: he's identified himself as a Lloyd Dobbler for most of his post-pubescent life, but now he's made the discovery that, to reach girls who are in their mid-twenties, you don't have to call their fathers and ask permission to take them to a dance, and that sometimes they actually like it when you chill the fuck out and don't play them Peter Gabriel outside in the rain.

This guy has an urge to make up for all the years he lost. He thinks of the #2's of the world and, even though for years he has believed that he is a better man than they, he secretly (or not so secretly) wants to feel like one of them.

He's had a girlfriend before. He hasn't had options before. Having options is new and its novelty has not worn off.

Is 26 the new 22? For some of these guys, it is.

Considering their sensitivity and intelligence, you might expect that men in the #3 category would have discovered their own ability to attract women in college, but that is often not the case.

You might think that, once released from high school, they became free of their high school baggage. But no. When many of these guys encountered the freedom of college, they chose social circles and subjects of study that supported their older ways of thinking. They fail to see that the brooding cave they into which they retreated as teens was just as much of a prison as the stifling high school social scene. For these guys, it was not until after college that they ever learned how to function outside of their cocoons. In this case, 26 resembles 22 on account of arrested development.

Your ex-guy, despite being a headache, sounds like a pretty romantic person, and here's one thing that's common to nearly all romantic people: they scare themselves. It is very likely that, when he said "I love you," he actually scared himself, and that caused him to back off.

Sometimes, early into a relationship, a man realizes that he wants to hold on to a woman and then subsequently realizes that they are not officially together. He panics as he realizes that she has no major reason not to sleep with another guy. Sometimes, he just says, "I really like you," and leaves it at that. But sometimes, he says, "I love you," or "I'll never leave you."

If these romantic/possessive declarations do not freak out the woman and she complies, then this immediately guarantees him the security he craves. It often freaks him out later, however, as he realizes the commitment that he got himself into.

I hate to use a shallow and reductive metaphor like this, but it makes some sense in this situation: Sometimes, saying "I love you," is like making an impulse buy. Sometimes, men see George Foreman Grills at Home Depot and think, "Damn! I don't have that!" and then they immediately buy it. Then they take it home and realize that they don't have the energy to put it together, and will have to do some work to clear out the patio, so they abandon it for a while.

What freaks guys out about commitment is sometimes just the fact that they no longer have the freedom to get with other girls, but sometimes it's also little things. Like the fact that they will have to increase their level of thoughtfulness and attentiveness. That they might, for instance, find themselves helping a girl build a closet, and that merely buying her candy or flowers won't cut it any more.

Re: Will this guy come back? Whether or not this guy wants to come back right now is not important. What is important is the best way for you to handle the breakup.

Sometimes, the best way to handle a breakup where you were on the losing end is not to merely tell yourself to give up and forget about it, but to actually tell yourself that you can get them back.

If you wonder to yourself "Does he want me back?" the worst that can happen is that you'll start to believe that he does want you back without seeing any true evidence of it, you'll wait for him, and then he won't come back. That would suck.

If you constantly tell yourself, "Get over him, get over him, get over him," the worst that can happen is that, in the midst of all the trying to get over him, you'll hold in emotions that may have been used in a more productive way. That would suck, too.

But if you get over him with the intention of using your newfound confidence to get him back, the worst that can happen is that you won't get him back and, this time around, it won't hurt you the way it did when he broke up with you.

We've all got our own ways of getting over people. Jumping into another relationship ASAP is not one of them. Forcing yourself to hate the person who hurt you is not one of them. Meeting new people is good.

Doing the things that comfort you when you're alone is good, but be very, very conscious of how much time you spend alone (when you're alone, confidence can turn into heartbreak pretty quickly).

Spend a lot of time around your friends, but be careful around friends who, in giving you advice, will attempt to use your situation to toot their own horns. Don't spend too much time around the friends who say, "Oh, you must be so hurt... Don't go out tonight, stay with me and cry!" and don't spend too much time around the friends who say, "Guys all suck, forget about it, be single with me forever," either. Stick with the friends who help you harness your sadness in a way that genuinely strengthens your friendship.

A brief follow-up for RUA

I'll get to Tomcat on a Midnight Spree soon, but first, I want to add to something  I said to Receiver of Unwanted Attention in the last post.


Many people took issue with two of my suggestions. (Although they did it by email, not in comments which I wish they would do so that I could look popular.)


The suggestion people took issue with was, "Tell him that you can't make out with him because you'll get too emotional." Several people said to me, "No, that will make the guy want you more."


That may be true in many cases, but I still think that it will work on some guys.


I was more or less trying to make and re-make the point that making yourself less mysterious will make people less likely to obsess over you.


Guys have a tendency to idealize girls. We also have a tendency to be unprepared to actually deal with the kind of emotions you need to deal with when you're in a relationship.


Those things tend to go hand-in-hand: idealization and emotional cluelessness.


I look back and notice that the girls I've had the most enduring crushes on were the ones whose romantic lives I knew the least about.


In many cases, I changed once I really got to know a girl: I either stopped crushing on her or decided to actually make an effort to pursue her.


Back to you, RUA (Hope you're still reading me from out there in internet land!). What I mean is, If you want to make guys into friends, encourage them to see you as much like a friend as possible. Let them see the aspects of you that you're careful about showing to guys you like. Call yourself crazy, or fart, or goofily-drunkenly-casually make out with them, whatever snaps them back into the reality that you are a human being, you're not the manic pixie dream girl who's going to save them, and you're never going to be in love with them.